Episode 21: Health Care and Horror
Boo! With Halloween right around the corner, the sisters unpack the concept of fear in the medical space. From white coat syndrome to fear of needles to Halloween costumes, this episode covers a little bit of everything. Be sure to stick around until the end for a walk down memory lane of the sisters’ Halloween costumes, and check out our Instagram for some photos!
SHOW NOTES
Sources and Further Reading:
All pop culture references in this episode:
“The Shaggy Dog” scene that made Kayla sad
A Series of Unfortunate Events books and Netflix show
Shawn Johnson, Olympic gymnast, and teammate Nastia Liukin
Further reading on:
TRANSCRIPT
Kayla 0:09
You're listening to the My Sister’s Cancer podcast. I'm Kayla Crum, registered nurse and writer.
Ella 0:15
And I'm Ella Beckett, social worker and cancer survivor.
Kayla 0:20
We're sisters on a mission to care for the cancer community through the sharing of real life stories, a sprinkle of sass, and lots of support.
Ella 0:28
Join us in a new kind of pity party. It's a pity so many of us carry the heavy burden of cancer alone. So let's make it a party and carry it together.
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Kayla 1:05
Hello and welcome back to My Sister's Cancer podcast. As I'm sure you gathered by now, this is a special Halloween episode. We are covering health care and horror. So I am Kayla. Just want to identify my voice for you, and I am here with my sister Ella, as always. Before we jump in, I just want to remind everybody that we have a website, mysisterscancer.co. It's got a podcast tab where every episode has a transcript if accessibility matters to you, or show notes with links to further resources and reading. And I just want to make sure everybody knows about that resource. So today, health care and horror. What does that mean? A couple different things. We're going to cover the more Halloween-esque type of horror, things like dressing up as a bloody hospital patient or a sexy nurse. But we're also going to cover more of just fear around hospitals and needles and things like that, and how that plays out for cancer patients and their families. So full disclaimer at the beginning - I am a big scaredy cat. I don't do horror movies. I don't do anything remotely scary like a haunted house. I'm all about, like, trick-or-treating and black cats and cobwebs on people's bushes. I think it's fun. I love, like, a kid's Halloween movie. It's great. Like the Charlie Brown one, or even something like “Hocus Pocus.” I can have a good time, but don't ever give me something with a bad ending or that is intentionally made to scare me, or I will not sleep for weeks. Ella was always a bit braver than me when it came to scary stuff, but we were actually flipped when it came to being scared of the hospital. So do you remember how your fear of the hospital started? Or did you just kind of always, as a kid, not like going there?
Ella 3:09
I don't really have a memory of my relationship to a hospital when I was a child, or like even the doctor's office, like, I don't really think that the fear started back then. I can identify one incident that definitely escalated my fear of hospitals. I was probably upper elementary, maybe middle school, and we were visiting someone at the hospital. And I had never seen a nasogastric tube before in my life, and we're in this small room. It was very warm in there. There was not a lot of space, like just a very stuffy room. But then you're seeing these fluids, like, pumping in and out of this person. And I was just not feeling so hot. And I started leaning on Kayla like, I think I started swaying a little bit, like I was lightheaded, a little bit dizzy. I remember I started swaying on to Kayla, and I was a bit of a jokester, so like, I think she thought I was kidding. I think you thought I was kidding and you took a step back in my memory. And so my entire body weight and myself, I just completely fell. And I kid you not, I fell on to the other person in the room’s hospital bed. Like the the corner of it. I have this, like, flashbulb memory of, like, seeing this stranger's face as I'm, like, hitting the ground and just, like, bounced off from this guy's bed. And then I just, like, woke up super, like, clammy, you know, being helped to a seated position, whatever. So like, that was just a very traumatic situation for me and I think ever since that -
Kayla 5:02
And for the patient!
Ella 5:06
Yeah. All around not the best. And I think ever since that happened then I just was like, not about hospitals. Like… we also had that weird situation where you and I were sitting in the lobby of a hospital while mom and dad were visiting someone -
Kayla 5:24
A little sitting area on a floor. They were just down the hall. Our parents were down the hall.
Ella 5:28
Yeah we’re just in this cute little lobby. I think we were being productive and trying to get our homework done. Whatever. And there was this massive picture frame on the wall and it literally just fell on me.
Kayla 5:40
Yeah, it was insane.
Ella 5:42
You can't make this stuff up, okay? Hospitals were not kind to me. And so then I developed a fear of them and had no interest in going in them whatsoever. Like, I truly struggled even visiting people after that point, like for years. So I guess to answer your question, that might be where some of my fears started.
Kayla 6:06
I just remember they offered you ice cream and you declined and I was like, “You always say yes to ice cream. I could have eaten that ice cream.” [laughter]
Ella 6:12
My bad.
Kayla 6:13
And then the time the picture frame fell on, you were sitting there and it just, like, fell on your shoulder.
Ella 6:19
It was big too.
Kayla 6:21
It was huge. It was like, as long as the couch.
Ella 6:23
Yeah.
Kayla 6:23
Thankfully, the nurses could see us from the nursing station and they knew we weren't goofing around. They were like, “Those poor sweet girls were just sitting there and it fell on her!” And they wanted to, like, X-ray you to cover their liability butts. But Mom and Dad were like, she's fine.
Ella 6:37
Totally.
Kayla 6:38
So you didn't have the best encounters, I will give you that, with hospitals.
Ella 6:42
Thank you.
Kayla 6:43
But what I want to clarify with you is like, I don't remember you at home being particularly, like, averse to blood or anything. Was it ever like needles and blood for you, or was it the actual, like, entering the space of the hospital?
Ella 6:56
Oh that's a great clarifying question. I don't really think it was needles and blood. I mean, I never really had a problem, like, if I had to get my blood drawn or anything like that.
Kayla 7:07
Yeah or even going to the doctor. Yeah.
Ella 7:10
I will say I had this very strange reaction to - this is going to sound terrible, but when I would see like a cleft palate. I remember there used to be like these ads in um…
Kayla
Reader's Digest!
Ella
Reader's Digest. So I'd be just, like, reading the magazine, right? And then bam, out of nowhere. Oh my goodness. And like I just had this, like, visceral reaction in my body and I don't - I don't know what that was, but I think it was something - it was just like, yeah, medically different. Right. And like out of the ordinary. And it always just like, took me by such like, shock.
Kayla 7:49
Yeah, there was a billboard for a while and I just remember that was really hard for you because like, we were like, “Ah, don't let Ella go past this billboard!” I remember I would rip out the cleft palates for you from the Reader's Digest.
Ella 8:01
That's true love.
Kayla 8:02
Which like, what middle schoolers read Reader's Digest? But we did. We’d pick out - we'd read them, like, the funny parts, you know, they had like, those little - readers would send in little jokes and stuff, I don't know. But yeah, I mean, I think some people are just more sensitive to physical or visual manifestations of pain. And in a way, you know, I'm not somebody who was ever triggered in that way, like you were by the cleft palate. But I was more - I was made very sad by like, silly things. Like if they would make fun of an elderly person in a movie, like it was supposed to be funny, like a granny gets thrown in a tree. And that would just make me so sad.
Ella 8:47
In “The Shaggy Dog.” That's the one that you're thinking of!
Kayla 8:51
So it’s like, I think we all have these little things that just, like, we're like, oh, like, that's not right. Or like that person is hurting.
Ella 8:57
Yeah.
Kayla 8:58
And in a way, obviously you have to work through some of that to be a functional adult, but at the same time I want to be like, “No, it’s a good thing to not be callous, right, to the world.” Like, you have to lean into that little bit of you that is sad by those things. You don't want to treat people poorly because of their medical differences, but like -
Ella 9:16
Totally.
Kayla 9:17
- it's okay to feel compassion or sadness, I think, in those situations. But it can walk the line and cross over into like, debilitating fear where you don't even take care of yourself, right? Because you're too afraid to go to the doctor. So I guess what I want to hear from you is like, we all knew this, that like, hospitals and Ella didn't get along, and then you got diagnosed. So, like, was it kind of a like, “Well, it is what it is” and you were just over it, or was it hard for you in those first weeks? Also, it was at the children's hospital, which is so much friendlier. But like, what was that experience like?
Ella 9:53
Yeah, I mean, I remember us in some ways - I don't want to say making light of it, but we would always be like, “God's got a sense of humor, like, let's take the girl that hates hospitals and make her spend a lot of time in one.” Now, again, theologically, I don't believe that statement.
Kayla 10:12
Yeah, yeah.
Ella 10:13
But, um… I don't know. I mean, I think - I think I just kind of had to deal with it, like, I don't really remember feeling, I guess physiologically feeling like a lot of fear and anxiety, like walking into the hospital those first few times. I think I was so shocked and like, numb to a lot of different things in those - especially the first few weeks, that I don't think it was like fully hitting me that like, you know. “Oh, I have to spend copious amounts of time the next few months in this space that I do not like.”
Kayla 10:55
It's interesting. I am a nurse and so I was like, fine with all that stuff. But now, since your experience, specifically going back to that children's hospital evokes, like, a visceral reaction in me. Like I can feel anxiety, like, clenching down on my chest and like… and my breathing is weird, like I just… can't go back there. And it's so strange because you've said that, like, you don't really have that experience with the children's hospital. And yeah, I don't know if that means I haven't worked through everything like I should have or what, but it's like, now I have almost like a fear response going up those elevators or whatever. Which is a shame because they have delicious - face cookies I call them because they're the size of your face. And I worked across the bridge from there for years. Just adjacent, and I would walk over there all the time, to get the cookies and the milkshakes. But yeah, I had not gone for a while, and then I came back and it was very difficult for me. Yeah. So it's interesting how different things can definitely trigger people to be afraid or like, bring you back to something scary.
Ella 12:04
I will say one thing that really triggers me to this day is the smell of the soap at that hospital. Like, I kid you not, if I am there for just like another reason or whatever, or in like a similar like - the same network’s outpatient office, right. Like they might use the same soap or whatever. And like I will use it and then like, oh my gosh, I can't even deal with it. Like, I have to find, like, lotion or something immediately because it's just like so - it makes me feel like physically nauseous, the smell of the soap.
Kayla 12:38
Wow, yeah. It's wild the different ways our senses can bring us back. And I've heard your smell is one of the biggest ones that can bring you back, so that makes sense. I do want to touch briefly on resources before we move into the more Halloween-adjacent portion of this episode. As a nurse, I was exposed to a variety of ways that we can help patients who deal with fear, both kids and adults. So starting with the kids. Most children's hospitals will have something called a child life specialist, and that's somebody who most likely has a degree in recreational therapy, and then an additional like master's degree in child life and child development. And these people are amazing. Like, they make it their mission to help kids deal with what's happening to them in a medical setting. They are key when it comes to explaining medical procedures to kiddos, when it comes to distracting them if that has to be done. I mean, we don't ever trick a kid by having them distract them, but they will like, explain to the kid like, “I'm going to play this game on the iPad with you so the nurse can do what she has to do,” and like talk through it. And I worked in an office for allergies where I had to give a lot of shots, and sometimes we had a couple cases where these kiddos were like, allergic to bees or something and really needed to get these - the shot therapy. So child life specialists would come in and work with the kiddo to desensitize them to the needles and help distract them while we did what we had to do. So that is a huge resource. If you have a kiddo, that's really resistant to any sort of medical treatment and needs it, I would look for child life specialists in your health care system, or at the very least, like, you know, a child psychologist can often work in a similar way. It's just that child life specialists are specifically meant to like, be that intermediary for kids in hospitals. Another thing is that unfortunately, we don't really have that for adults. So there are social workers, especially when you go on to like inpatient floors. But if you're a person who has what we call “white coat syndrome,” meaning going into the doctor makes your blood pressure go up and makes you get sweaty and nervous and you just can't explain it -you just feel that fear. You know, they don't have like, a social worker there to hold your hand necessarily every time you go for your checkup. Adults are kind of just forced to deal with it. But I do want to just say, you know, like we always say on this podcast, be your own advocate. Like first of all, I think it is helpful to tell the staff, especially if it's somewhere you're going to go regularly, like your primary care office, you know, tell the M.A., the nurse, the doctor, “Okay, I struggle with this,” and they can be a little more considerate of how you feel. And like if you do get faint, they're going to be a little more alert to what's going on than if you didn't tell anyone and then you just pass out cold. Also, I think if you tell them, then you have the opportunity to say, “Hey, I get really nervous when I come in here. I'm going to wear my earbuds and play, like, music or a podcast to distract myself while you take my vitals. Like, just so you know, I'm not being rude. Like, I just really get stressed,” like that kind of thing. So earbuds are a great way to distract yourself. I mean, we're not above screens as adults, right? Like you can hide behind your phone or like, watch something too. Obviously not while you're trying to converse with the doctor, but if taking the vitals or getting a shot is hard for you, those are tools we can use. And again, if you explain it to the person, they'll totally respect that. Finally, you can also bring a support person. So now that we're past the whole COVID restriction days, you always can bring somebody with you to hold your hand or make sure you don't pass out or something like that. So even as a grown-up, don't be afraid to ask your partner or your roommate or, you know, whoever - your mom still - like, that's fine to come with you. We just want you to get the care you need. Right. And so I can't promise every single health care person will be kind and amazing to you. I want you to find people who are, who work with you. But most of them have seen this before. Like, not every adult loves going to the doctor, and we want you to take the steps you need to get yourself there and to take care of yourself. So that being said Ella, did you have any coping techniques for all of the like, pokes and prods and stuff you went through? Or like you said, you sort of just were able to kind of flip a switch once you got diagnosed and I don't know, just dealt with it?
Ella 17:17
Yeah. I mean, I hate to use, like, the phrase “Well I just powered through,” but in some ways I feel like that's true. Like, I can't really identify like, great coping mechanisms that I had. I think I just kind of understood that, like, all of that was necessary for me to be here on the other side of it. Like, that sounds really blunt, but I think I was like, okay, like, these are the steps that are necessary. I'm just gonna do my best to make it through them and tolerate them.
Kayla 17:54
And I think maybe that survival piece. Right, like that you had a life threatening illness. Maybe it was what helped you make that shift, because most of us are able to justify not getting care if it's not life-threatening. Right? So maybe that was part of it, just mentally being able to be like, I have to do this to live, right?
Ella 18:13
Yeah, exactly.
Kayla 18:14
So moving on to the more thematic element of today's episode, I just wanted to touch on, as a nurse, this sexy nurse Halloween costume, but rarer, but I've seen it, is like a bloody patient in a gown. Or like a doctor who's got like a hacksaw that's bloody. And I just don't understand this or like why people do this. Is it people who have never had to have medical treatment in their life, like, what do you think? Do you think this is appropriate?
Ella 18:49
No, I mean, I don't - I don't want to, like, condemn anyone that's, you know, been the doctor with the bloody syringe. But at the same time, I think it’s a little bit insensitive in many ways, like, I think it's good to be aware of how like, things like that can be extremely triggering to other people. Like, I'm just thinking about, you know, if you dress up like that and you go to a party and like someone's there who had to, like, hold a loved one in their arms who, like, was very bloody or something as they, like, passed away after an accident. I mean, like, talk about triggering, and you're just like in this social setting where you're just trying to, like, have fun and, like, hang out with people. I don't know. To me it just feels unnecessary. But like you were saying earlier, like I have never been one for like, the gore of Halloween. I just think it's a little bit over the top. I don't really understand the point. Like, I like the cute Halloween stuff, but like, I'm not really here for like, the gore in general.
Kayla 20:03
Yeah, clearly we have a bias on this podcast. I'm married to someone who loves horror movies and is here for all of that. So like, I see you, I think there is a - if you're into that, I'm not saying you're a terrible person. I married one of you. But depending on the setting, too. I guess if you're going to an all adult party and you want to be gory, that's a little bit different. I still think, like you said, certain costumes could be triggering for other adults, but I don't understand, like, the yards that are super gory. Like, I love a yard with, like, giant spiders. And I'm not a spider girl, but like, the big spiders and the ghosts and like, even a certain element of scary. Like, I like a fog machine and some like, spooky music, but like, the heads cut off and like babies dead and stuff like that. I'm just like, I don't know, I don't really see the point of this, and I feel like it's again, it's like that little voice inside you that's like, “This isn't right. Like, this makes me sad.”
Ella 21:05
Yeah.
Kayla 21:06
I've never really been a gory gal myself. It's interesting. I can't even really watch gory movies. Even if they're not like horror, like “Breaking Bad” is apparently this amazing show. But like three episodes in, they're trying to, like, dispose of this body in a bathtub by, like, burning it with acid or something. And I was just like, yep, I'm out. Like, I can't keep watching this. And it's bizarre because I'm a nurse and I've seen so much like blood and stuff like that. I just like - something about… maybe it's more like the desecration of a body than it is the actual blood for me. But it's like the disrespect or like the - desecration, I don't know. I love a good, like, Agatha Christie murder mystery, but those are usually like, “Oh, we came upon a body.” And, like -
Ella 21:52
A little more tasteful.
Kayla 21:53
It's not like, how do we get rid of this? Like, I guess we'll burn it with acid, I don't know.
Ella 21:59
Yeah.
Kayla 22:00
Did you ever read “The Series of Unfortunate Events?” That was big when I was a kid. By Lemony Snicket, was like the pseudonym that the author wrote under, and they actually recently made a Netflix series, which is incredible. If you have a little bit, like, upper elementary/older kids, I think they would love that. Me and my husband liked it and we don't even have kids. But each book was like, these orphans are shunted around from home to home, but every home ends up having their like evil distant relative Count Olaf, who's trying to steal their fortune. Anyways, one of the books is set at like, a freaky hospital, and, it’s almost like that, like, dirty hospital vibe. And I can't even put my finger on, like, another place I've seen this, but this is something that comes up sometimes. Again, I don't watch horror movies, so like, I wouldn't know, but that like dirty surgical room or like, the doctor's going to do something bad to you while you're under. Like, I've definitely seen that trope around too and… I mean it's scary to go under anesthesia. I've had it for very minor things. It's like, I don't need any media in my head telling me like, “But maybe he has like a bloody hatchet or like maybe his tools aren't clean!” I don't know.
Ella 23:17
Well, we thought we would end this episode on a bit of a lighter note after digging into some of the scary stuff. I thought it could be fun, Kayla, to share a little bit about some of our favorite Halloween costumes. One of yours comes to mind for me. Which one do you think I am thinking of? [laughter]
Kayla 23:41
When I was a table. [laughter]
Ella 23:45
Absolutely. Can you please describe to the people what you mean when you say you were a table for Halloween?
Kayla 23:52
Yeah. I'll have to put this photo on Instagram so that you get the real visual. I blame Family Fun magazine - shout out, I don't know if they're still in existence. But you know, in the early 2000’s, they were kind of like Pinterest, but in a magazine form for all the suburban moms out there. And my mom loved family fun, and it was one of the magazines she got, and they had Halloween costume ideas for your kid. And mom was very good at like, DIY stuff, like she had made me a Madeline costume one year, like Madeline from the little books, that was just adorable. She, like, cut it out of felt and made me the little blue coat and I had the little straw hat. She helped me in a later year when I wanted to be a Grecian princess, like from Greece, whatever that is. She helped me cobble together that costume, bless her heart, and nobody understood what I was. But anyways, so we had a bit of a DIY approach to Halloween and I have no memory of like, if I was excited about this idea. The picture seemed to show that I loved it. Like, it's funny to me because all the other years I was usually like a book character or an animal. But then this one year, I think I was in like second grade, I was a table. And so what that means is that I had like, cardboard cut in a circle that went like a foot off my shoulders all the way around, and my head was stuck up out of the middle as the centerpiece, and I had like a solo cup on my head with flowers in it, because I was like the vase. And then we glued like our old little kitchen play food to this tablecloth that was over the cardboard, so I had like a chicken leg and like, fake grapes, like glued to this table with like silverware and everything.
Ella 25:34
It’s good.
Kayla 25:36
And there's this photo, I'll put it on Instagram, of me just like cheesing big time. And Ella's like a bunny and she's like in the corner, like, barely fitting in the photo because I'm just, like, so large with my table. And that just has to be like my most memorable costume ever. I don’t -
Ella 25:55
Iconic.
Kayla 25:56
It's - I don't understand how that came about. Like, did mom show me the magazine and be like, “Hey, what about this?” And I was like, yes, I must be a table. Like, I don't… I recently saw a meme about this. I have never heard of someone else being a table, and I just saw another girl on the internet who was a Thanksgiving table and I was like, okay, someone else's mom read Family Fun. I don't, I don't think I can top that. That was my most memorable costume for sure. What about you? You kept it pretty mainstream. I have one memory, though.
Ella 26:29
Are you saying I’m basic? [laughter]
Kayla 26:30
No. [laughter] I have a memory of the year that you were Hannah Montana.
Ella 26:37
Oh, yeah.
Kayla 26:38
And everyone just kept telling you, “Oh, are you a rock star?” And you were like, “I'm Hannah Montana!” And in every photo, you look like you're eating your microphone because you wanted to be, like, singing in the photo. [laughter]
Ella 26:48
Absolutely. Action shots.
Kayla 26:51
And then at home, was it after or before trick-or-treating?
Ella 26:56
It was at the very end.
Kayla 26:56
You were like whipping your wig - your wig around, like, “Look at me with my blonde hair,” and you whacked your head in the doorframe of the bathroom, like, so hard and, like, fell to the ground. It was kind of terrible.
Ella 27:11
Also, I had blonde hair, so I'm curious as to why I felt the need to wear a blonde wig.
Kayla 27:18
Well, but see, Hannah Montana wore the wig. It was a wig for Hannah, remember? Like she would secretly put on the wig.
Ella 27:30
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's part of it. I just think it's then kind of like… obviously wigs then like took on a whole meaning, like a different meaning for me when I like, actually had to wear one. Yeah. And I guess that's one thing we didn't touch on, right? Is like, wigs are like a costume piece, but then like, that's loaded now because it was actually like a huge part of my daily, I guess, wardrobe, you could say, for a stretch of time.
Kayla 27:58
And ironically, you did get a platinum blonde wig very similar to your Hannah Montana wig, but much higher quality and no bangs when you had cancer.
Ella 28:07
That's right.
Kayla 28:08
I never could tolerate a wig because it was itchy.
Ella 28:12
Oh yeah.
Kayla 28:13
But yeah, like people who need wigs... like, that's kind of a privileged thing for me to say.
Ella 28:18
Totally. I also have this memory of a Halloween where I was Shawn Johnson because, you know, I was obsessed with her. For those of you who don't know, Shawn Johnson is a great gymnast. She went to the Olympics the same year that Nastia Liukin won, blah blah blah. Anyway, I was wearing like this leotard, but I had like a tracksuit on over it or something because it's cold, right? We live in Michigan, so like your costume dreams don't come true here because you're cold, so you have to wear a jacket over everything. And I remember so clearly like nobody knew who I was. And part of that is that Shawn Johnson is like four foot nine. And at this time in my life, I was already like, I don't know, five-six. So people are like, I don't get it. Who are you? [laughter]
Kayla 29:12
[laughter] Oh, yeah. Is there anything worse as a kid than having every adult at every door you go to guess wrong what your costume is? It's just like a slap in the face the whole night.
Ella 29:23
Its’ great.
Kayla 29:23
I've taken to like, I don't guess. I'll just be like, “I love your costume” when kids come to my house now, I'm not going to, like, guess wrong and ruin their vibe.
Ella 29:32
Yeah. Totally.
Kayla 29:34
Unless it's, like, very clear. But then you never know. I will say that one of my costumes I'm proudest of as I got older was Flo, the Progressive girl. So - I think she's still around. But she used to have, like, a chokehold on Progressive commercials. And she was like, had that, like bump-it or whatever, and like the blue headband. And I kind of just like printed out some Progressive logos and like, did my hair and stuff like her. And I had a passing resemblance. I have to say, that was like a pretty good costume in high school for a Halloween party.
Ella 30:07
It was really good.
Kayla 30:09
I also remember one year I felt like a loser because you and all your little friends were going to be like Tinkerbell and the other fairies and like, I don't know if I was like, indecisive or like, I don't know what my deal was, but I just, like, glommed onto you and your little friends and decided to be like Rosetta, which is a fairy no one's ever heard of. And like, used old dance costumes to be - to be a fairy from Pixie Hollow with you. And I was like, maybe a touch too old to do that. And like, I felt my lameness, like, as I was trick or treating in that year, I don't know. [laughter]
Ella 30:46
[laughter] Oh, that makes me sad.
Kayla 30:48
I think I was in like sixth grade or something. And you were in like third grade, right? And so it's like. I don't know. I don't know what possessed me to do that.
Ella 30:57
I think it's sweet.
Kayla 30:58
You were a Cheetah Girl one year, too. With your friends. I think you had a poncho?
Ella 31:03
We had cheetah ponchos, you guys. [laughter] For those of you listening who are pretty young, you might not know what a poncho is, but look it up.
Kayla 31:11
Look it up. A felt poncho. [laughter] A lot of them were reversible. It was very cool.
Ella 31:15
Ah. Those were the days. Well, we hope you all have a wonderful Halloween. Stay safe out there and we'll talk to you soon.