Episode 16: Family Roles
From the earliest days of childhood, we all fall into family roles. One sibling may be the jokester while another is the goody two shoes. One parent may be the comforter while another is the instigator of fun. What happens to these roles when a crisis hits? On today’s episode, the sisters discuss how their own family roles changed over the course of Ella’s cancer, and how acknowledging the changes in our families is often the best path forward.
SHOW NOTES
Sources and Further Reading:
TRANSCRIPT
Kayla 0:09
You're listening to the My Sister’s Cancer podcast. I'm Kayla Crum, registered nurse and writer.
Ella 0:15
And I'm Ella Beckett, social worker and cancer survivor.
Kayla 0:20
We're sisters on a mission to care for the cancer community through the sharing of real life stories, a sprinkle of sass, and lots of support.
Ella 0:28
Join us in a new kind of pity party. It's a pity so many of us carry the heavy burden of cancer alone. So let's make it a party and carry it together.
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Ella 0:42
Welcome back to the My Sister's Cancer podcast. We're so glad that you're here. This is one of your co-hosts, Ella Beckett, here, as always with my sister, Kayla Crum. Just a few housekeeping things. We did want to remind you that you can find us on Instagram @mysisterscancer. We always love to hear from our listeners and your thoughts on an episode that we just released, or a message with really any of your thoughts or questions. We just love to hear from those of you who are listening along with us. We also wanted to remind you that you can find us on the web, mysisterscancer.co, and you can also find us on Patreon. So as we've mentioned in previous episodes, Patreon is a way that you can support us financially to keep creating the podcast and support our work, so you can search My Sister's Cancer or Kayla Crum and you should be able to find us there. Today we're going to be talking about family roles, and Kayla, I'm just going to throw it over to you to get us started.
Kayla 1:55
Thanks. So family roles, I think we all know kind of what we mean by that on a surface level, right? There's moms, dads, kids, there's, you know, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, yada, yada. But when you start looking at how these roles adjust and interact with each other in the context of a crisis like cancer, patterns and character traits that certain family members have always, you know, exhibited can get shaken up or turned on their heads. And that can lead to some really interesting family dynamics and changes and tensions in the family. So that's what we're going to kind of unpack today; share a little bit about our family roles and dynamics and how that shifted during cancer and, I mean, we're not going to be prescriptive. There's not like, a lesson to be learned here as much as I think it's just helpful to reflect, either during a crisis or afterward as you're sort of picking up the pieces, on ways you and your family members may have changed, rearranged, shifted during that time. And I think sometimes when things go unacknowledged, even internally, it can lead to, like, some tension in relationship or ongoing frustration. Whereas if you look at, oh, like, you know, I used to always do X and now that really changed because of what happened. If you kind of take an honest, reflective look at that, sometimes that can lead to healthier, ongoing dynamics down the road. So we are not the experts, but we're just going to share from our experience and hopefully it resonates with somebody out there. So Ella what are your first thoughts on this topic? Is this even something you gave thought to since you were the person in the crisis, or is this something more I was pondering since I was kind of like, part of the moving pieces around you?
Ella 4:02
I definitely don't think I really was thinking about this in the moment; like you were saying in the crisis I don't think I was taking a step back and pondering like, how our roles were maybe changing or being altered or stretched. But I will say, like now being several years out, I mean, I think it's like we've said before, it's easier to reflect on things kind of after the fact. And I definitely can see what you were talking about earlier, just how roles can be changed and how - I think highlighted, too; like maybe some of the roles that we have in a family, like, the things that you do or the things that you kind of fall into naturally as a person in a family unit, like I think those things are really brought out in difficult times for sure. But no, I definitely don't think in the midst of it all, I was thinking about this at all.
Kayla 5:09
Yeah, I'm not sure that I really was thinking about roles, at least directly during your cancer either. In retrospect, like through therapy and like, reflecting back on that time, I've been able to kind of identify some things that changed. Even though I wasn't thinking about those things, I think we were probably all feeling it. And that's maybe what I'm trying to draw out by suggesting this topic today is like, I think we feel the tension of things like shifting and - I'm a words girl. Like, I think putting language around some of that stuff can be helpful. So, you know, there's only two of us as far as siblings go. I'm the older sister. I often felt, like, responsible. My dad always said, “Be a leader Kay,” which I would like, roll my eyes, because he usually meant, like, if we were both supposed to be doing some chore, like, I should be a leader because I was older. And yeah, I mean we did fit the stereotypes a little bit. I was usually more of a killjoy and like, responsible and organized one. And you were a little more like, “here for the party” type of one. But like, that's not to say, you know, neither of us was a caricature. Like you were very organized and dedicated to school and like, I don't know, maybe I was a caricature, but… those types of things are kind of called into question when something horrible happens. So my role as like your older sister being your protector in a way, and like leading the way was really shaken up when you went through this. Because on some level, like you had only ever blazed paths that like, I had already trod before you. And that sounds silly in a way when I say it out loud, but it's like, yeah, I - something about my identity was deeply rooted in the fact that, like, I experienced everything first, you know, middle school, high school, college, driving a car, having a boyfriend, like all of those things I had first. And so then when you went through this experience, I think it it was weird for me because it wasn't anything that I could like, give you advice you probably didn't want, you know, or like, I couldn't relate to what you were going through in the way that I felt like I could for most other things. Now, like, you did some sports I didn't do and things like that, but like, in general, I had kind of like walked through life knowing that like, I went through it, and then like, now Ella is going to go through it and I can kind of relate to her and like, be there for her. So this was like weird for me to feel really out of my depth and like I'm her older sister and I have nothing to offer, like this just, is terrible, you know? And I wonder if Mom and Dad maybe felt that too. Like, obviously with your kids, you've walked life ahead of them. And then for them to go through something so big that no one else has gone through, that you haven't gone through… that must be strange. Did you feel kind of alone in our family at all? Like knowing that none of us had gone through anything like this?
Ella 8:28
I mean, I never really thought of it that way. But with you putting words to that, like, I'm really resonating a lot with what you're saying, because I definitely looked up to you a bunch and wanted your advice on everything and like, always appreciated the fact that, yes, you had done things before me and I could always ask you about things. Yeah, I guess I've just never really thought about like, this was something entirely new for all of us. And that, in many ways then, that made it different from the rest of our life experiences.
Kayla 9:09
Yeah, I don't want anyone to get a rosy picture of our relationship. We definitely fought, too. It's not like Ella was just like, “Oh dear sister, give me your advice” all the time. We're two and a half years apart, so there's a decent amount of, like, sibling rivalry. And I remember being really frustrated that Ella learned how to French braid before me because I should be teaching her that, things like that. So yeah, but especially as we got older, I do feel like we softened a bit towards each other, and once I went off to college too, and we weren't like living side by side all the time, we started to become more best friends. And then, yeah, I remember you seeking my advice more in that stage of life. So it was weird to like, not have anything to offer you, really. And yet I was studying nursing and like, trying to become a cancer nurse. Like my final clinical was on a cancer floor. And so it was just like, strange because in a way I had a little bit of information and like knowledge to share, but it wasn't like my lived experience. Yeah, it felt different than anything else in life before. And something I didn't realize until after the fact, too, is like, I was an unmarried college student the first time you had cancer, and then a year later I was a married nurse. So like, it just caught me at a really strange time. And I think now, like for both of us, when you're in your late teens, early 20s, you're sort of separating from your parents and trying to figure out like, how am I going to be an adult? How much of how my parents raised me am I going to integrate into my own life? How will I have boundaries with my parents, if any? Will I push back on anything that they expect of me? You know, how am I going to move about in the world as my own independent entity? And it's like, I think that it was difficult to be at that very transformative stage while trying to just like survive this health crisis, because setting boundaries and figuring out who you are as a grown-up is like hard enough when you're healthy. And so then with this going on in our family, I almost feel like it - for me and my husband, like, delayed or stunted for a while, like, our full-fledged adulthood, because we were kind of still very involved in like the nuclear family unit and like, revolving around you and Mom and Dad. Um, obviously I don't know what it would have been like the other way around, but it was definitely hard on our new marriage as we were trying to, like, figure out being a husband and wife and like, how we relate to our families of origin. Yeah. So that's just something that I think is really difficult at that stage of life.
Ella 12:06
Yeah and going off of that, I mean, I think I definitely felt my role shifting right when I was diagnosed because like, I was on the cusp of this new chapter and like these exciting opportunities, and like living on my own for the first time, and then all of a sudden, like, in many ways, I was like a young child again, like fully relying on Mom and Dad for things and needing to be cared for. And I think, yeah, in many ways that - my role kind of got lost, I feel like, in that time period, like - I didn't really know what my role was in the family for a long time because I felt like I was a completely different person, I guess. If that makes sense.
Kayla 13:01
I haven't heard you use that language before, but I can see where it would be like, really identity-shaking to have this diagnosis. We've talked before about how sometimes it was hard for you to be the object of people's pity. And so I'm just imagining that, like, if your only role was to like, rest up and endure, like you don't have an active role anymore in the family, whereas like before, you were kind of the family jokester. You kept us all up to date on the trends. Like you had these like, fun little roles that we all take on in the family. And then that definitely, like, changes. I mean, that's not to say you never cracked a joke or like, kept us updated on fashion or celebrity gossip, but like, it just was all different when you were sick. And I can't imagine, like, being thrust back into childhood kind of in that way. Like, I think you handled it better than I would have, like, I would have had a hard time like letting Mom have that much - control is the wrong word because like, she was just caring for you. It's not like she was being controlling. But yeah, like some level of like, she was like your cruise director. Like she was kind of in charge of everything because you were not your healthiest self, like you weren't able to navigate all of that. So, that must have been strange. I remember Brené Brown - I'll have to look up for the show notes where she said this. She has so many good books and speeches at this point. Who knows? But, famous social worker, podcaster, etcetera, Brené Brown said something about, like, she goes into over-functioning in a crisis while her siblings - I think she has like two sisters - go into under-functioning. And so this is just interesting to think about, like, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think that's a little bit similar to you and I. Like, Mom and I tend to be over-functioners in a crisis. Like, we're going to take all the notes and like, make sure everyone has food and like, white-knuckle everything. And like, historically, you and maybe Dad are a little bit more under-functional. Like, I'm going to take a minute and like, gather myself and rest and whatever. And it's like both of these in their extremes are probably not great, and yet both are needed. And so those roles also really come to a head in a crisis. And I think it's important to like, see the value in both types and like, hold space and respect both types because I mean, if all of us were one or the other, we'd be in trouble, right?
Ella 15:31
For sure. What you were saying earlier, though. Like it definitely was really difficult for me. And I think sometimes those role shifts can obviously lead to some tension. I mean, I think overall I was blown away by how great my relationship with Mom and Dad was throughout it all. I mean, we definitely had our bumps, but for the amount of time that I was spending with them in close quarters for an extended period of time, like, our relationship, I mean, did really well, all things considered. And I'm really grateful for that. But I will say, like, I do think those shifts in those roles can lead to some tension, and I mean think that's normal. I don't - I shouldn't use the word normal. But I mean, I think in a typical family situation, even like you were saying, in that shift and that new chapter or whatever, right, as you're transitioning into adulthood, I think there can be tension, but then you layer on like, a cancer diagnosis and then another cancer diagnosis. And just like navigating all of that - I mean I think there's definitely bound to be some tension.
Kayla 16:49
I'm not trying to “at least” you here, but I've been thinking about how it was maybe okay that you didn't have, like, a year of college under your belt already? Because I wonder how much harder it would have been for you to, like, actually have gone and exercised some of those freedoms and then come back.
Ella 17:09
Yeah.
Kayla 17:10
And had to like, regress, because I even remember coming home summers in college and, you know, a little bit being annoyed like about the rules or the expectations. Like, I've been living on my own for nine months and like now I have to, like, have a curfew. Like, okay, so yeah, I can imagine, like if you had had a taste of it, it might have been even harder to navigate coming back to Mom and Dad so thoroughly. I was also thinking about… really post-cancer, but during the COVID times you lived with Mom and Dad also, again, you got kicked out, basically sent home from college again for a worldwide pandemic and kind of were holed up with them again. And I'm just like, wow, like the fact that you guys are all still on speaking terms and like, have good relationships - sometimes it's like, pretty mind-blowing because, I mean, as a nurse, I've seen like, crisis and death can really bring a family together or drive them apart. And I will say, I kind of remember the first time, you know, it was a short - in retrospect, short four month chemo situation for you the first time. And we didn't maybe like, cope the best as a family. And then we tried to like, jump headfirst back into real life, whatever we thought that was. And so then I think the second time we were at least aware enough of like, what didn't work the first time as far as like, the expectations we put on each other, and like, the style of communication we had with each other, that I think we did a little bit better job the second time of like, being more kind to each other and like, holding space for each other's moods better. Did you experience that or was that mostly like among me and Mom and Dad? Sort of like shifting our approach?
Ella 19:03
No, I definitely experienced some of that. I mean, I think some of it, too, is just, I think we all got a lot better at like, vocalizing our needs or like, trying to set some boundaries or being better about… yeah, just saying things to each other instead of like, just opting out of sharing what we were really thinking or feeling, hoping to like, save each other's feelings. I just think we did a better job of, yeah, open communication. I mean, I think the first time around, I know Dad felt - and I'm sure you felt this too, like, just a little bit out of the loop and like, you maybe weren't able to be as, like, physically present as you wanted to be. I think the second time around we did a better job of like, trying to communicate more and like, keeping you and Dad and everyone else who was like, really in our inner circle, more aware and in-tune and up to speed.
Kayla 20:06
Yeah, I definitely remember feeling a bit out of it the first time being at college and feeling like the three of you were off on like a life raft alone. And I was like, on some island, like, not really connected. So yeah. What you were saying about trying to keep me and Dad, who are the ones who had to like, still keep doing normal life, in the loop was helpful the second time. And maybe even for me and Dad too, like that can't just be one-sided. Like, we had to be better about voicing when we felt out of it or like, asking better questions or anticipating, you know, needs and things like that. So unfortunately, like most things, you know, you get better with practice. So the first time we didn't manage all that as well.
Ella 20:55
Yeah.
Kayla 20:56
And I do think too, to briefly zoom out even further, you know, it changes your family roles in the extended family. So depending on like, if you live near other family members and if they're a big part of your daily life, a crisis like this can really rock that boat, too. Cousins, aunts, uncles, grandparents. In-laws. You know, we grew up near - actually, both our grandparents eventually moved to where we were and had lots of cousins and stuff around here. And so like, my mom had actually been very involved in caring for her aging parents until like four months before Ella was diagnosed. I can't even imagine what that would have been like had they still been alive. When Ella was diagnosed, it was like a strange… blessing. I don't even like that language, but like, they were in their 80s and they were ready to go and all of that. And like, I'm very glad they were spared the sadness of having to watch you have cancer. And I'm also glad for Mom that like, she wasn't leveled up in the sandwich generation to having - not just caring for kids and parents, but caring for a sick kid and parents. I'm sure that there's people out there who have that experience and that must be terrible. She also tended to be like, the organizer of her own family stuff, and I think she kind of had to take a step back from that, too when she was going through it with you. Like, she tended to be the one who was planning and scheduling, and I think through your whole cancer process kind of learned like, okay, the world doesn't implode if I take a step back from that role; other people can schedule stuff or not and like, nothing, you know, terrible happens. And then even like for me and my marriage, I had to like - well, first of all, I was learning how to be married at all, but like, figuring out how your spouse relates to your nuclear family and like, what that's going to look like, that's definitely affected when like, a sibling is sick, and like, just having to acknowledge like, yeah, like, my parents are going to have to be giving like, almost all of their time and attention and resources to this sibling, you know, like, that's just… something you have to kind of like, work through and accept, especially when it goes on for like, longer than you first thought, you know? Where do you see yourself now? In our family? I feel like we've all changed as a result of your cancer, and I'd like to think for the better for the most part. Um, do you almost think in a way we have less defined roles, like less strict roles now, or are they just like, deeper and different than before?
Ella 23:53
That's a really good question. I mean, I feel like for a really long time I was like, still trying to find what my role in the family was. Like I was saying, like, yeah, in the midst of it all, I was like, I lost some of what my usual roles were, like you were saying a lot of those more like, fun and lighthearted roles I feel like kind of fell to the wayside. And then when I was sick, I just - it was so different, like my dynamic with everyone. And then like when you're coming out of it and you're starting to get better and like, you're gaining strength and yes, kind of starting to get back to, like, whatever normal life looks like… I feel like for the longest time I still didn't really know, like, what my role in the family looked like. But I guess, I don't know. Like, if I've settled into like, a different role or like you were saying, if maybe all of our roles are just like, more expanded and deepened. I feel like I'll have to just ponder that one for a little bit because I really don't know.
Kayla 25:05
And part of that is probably my type-A brain wanting to, like, categorize everybody. So, I mean, there's probably not a pat answer to that. I do think that maybe the answer is just like, there's more grace involved now, grace for each other and realizing we each experienced that differently. And that sort of translates into life, like we all experience it differently and react in different ways. I will say like, ongoing, you being the cancer survivor, just for better or worse, sometimes it probably feels like a burden to you and sometimes it probably feels like support, but like people are just always going to respond a little differently to you, right? And be maybe even a little more tender or like, demonstrative in like their affection for you. Especially I'm thinking of like, parents, grandparents, like the older people in your life, I think in particular, who had to watch you go through that. And so like, I had a season of like, having to just like, admit that to myself and be okay with it and like, realize that that doesn't mean anyone loves you more than me or like, anything like that, like in, in a childish way. It’s just like, that's just a fact of life now that we all, myself included, have this, like, extra tenderness around you and your existence and like, that's going to forever affect the way we relate to each other. And that's just something we now incorporate into our life, you know?
Ella 26:38
Thanks for sharing that perspective, Kayla, and thank you all for hanging with us and thinking about family roles and how those change and shift and can be stretched under the pressure of a cancer diagnosis, but that at the end of the day, we can all have grace for each other, whatever the role that we play in our family is. Next week we're going to have a pretty fun, lighthearted episode and talk about how humor, specifically dark humor, got us through on many days of my cancer journey. And we will talk to you then.