Episode 17: Can Cancer Be Funny?
Have you ever said a joke and had it fall flat? Yet we all keep trying, because sometimes jokes speak the truth and bring people together in a way nothing else quite can. In today’s episode, the sisters discuss dark humor and its role in helping us cope with cancer.
SHOW NOTES
Sources and Further Reading:
Humorous Instagram accounts:
TRANSCRIPT
Kayla 0:09
You're listening to the My Sister’s Cancer podcast. I'm Kayla Crum, registered nurse and writer.
Ella 0:15
And I'm Ella Beckett, social worker and cancer survivor.
Kayla 0:20
We're sisters on a mission to care for the cancer community through the sharing of real life stories, a sprinkle of sass, and lots of support.
Ella 0:28
Join us in a new kind of pity party. It's a pity so many of us carry the heavy burden of cancer alone. So let's make it a party and carry it together.
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Kayla 0:42
Welcome to the My Sister's Cancer podcast. I'm Kayla Crum, one of your co-hosts, here as always with my sister, Ella Beckett. We are glad you're with us today. And we will be tackling a touchy subject, which is dark humor or humor surrounding the topic of cancer. So buckle up. It's going to be a bit of an interesting ride. You may have been on the butt end of jokes before about various health conditions or said jokes about various health conditions. We are not here to just shame people and point fingers. We're going to unpack where humor helped us through the cancer journey, times we said jokes that fell flat, times jokes were said to us that hurt - kind of the whole enchilada. As most of our podcasts are, we are going to have a bit of a nuanced take on humor as related to cancer, rather than say yes or no to all humor related to cancer. So before we get started, just a few reminders. You can follow us on Instagram @mysisterscancer. We have a website, mysisterscancer.co, that has a page for each podcast episode, and you can find show notes there. So if we reference anyone's work, there will be links there to our sources and just some further reading and recommendations sometimes of other Instagram follows or books and magazines for you to check out. It also has a full transcript. So if accessibility is something you need, we have a full transcript over there. We also have a Patreon so you can support our work over there for $5 a month. You can be a part of our private Patreon community and we're slowly starting to release a bit of bonus content, including some blooper reels over on the Patreon. So with that out of the way, I will let Ella define dark humor for all of us and take it from there.
Ella 2:47
So for the purposes of this podcast episode, we are going to define dark humor as “a style of comedy that makes light of subject matter that is generally considered taboo, particularly subjects that are normally considered serious or painful to discuss.” So as Kayla said, and as it might be somewhat obvious, we're going to mostly be talking about this in relationship to cancer and also cancer-adjacent things such as death. So these are really heavy topics that typically you would not think you would be cracking jokes about. Dark humor is really just a way to make it a little bit lighter. And I think a lot of people see dark humor as a coping mechanism. I know that I definitely did. It proved itself to be pretty effective, especially in certain scenarios because like I just said, I think it has a way of making something super heavy feel just a little bit lighter, even if it's just momentarily. I think that I've always been the kind of person who tries to be silly and to make other people laugh. I have a very sarcastic and sassy side if you really get to know me. And I also think that laughter can be really therapeutic. So I think as I was walking through this really difficult experience, I definitely turned to it at times as a way to laugh instead of cry and also just to make the load a little bit more bearable. So like we say in our opening, that like, it's a pity that so many of us have to carry the heavy burden of cancer. I just think that dark humor has its role. I will say there's a time and a place, but I definitely think it has its role in making the burden of cancer a little bit more bearable, at least in my experience. I will say there's certain settings that it was more appropriate and made me feel more connected to others. So I think of different times when I was with - I call them my cancer friends, but other cancer survivors from this support group that I'm a part of, right? Like when we're all hanging out, we can make those jokes to each other about our experience and just about… things that other people really don't think you can joke about. But because it's a shared experience, I feel like we kind of are able to make those jokes. But then there's also other settings where the humor just doesn't land well. So that's kind of my take on dark humor and just a little bit about my experience. Kayla, I'm curious to hear where you land.
Kayla 5:40
Well, the first thing I want to say is that you as the cancer patient, like, have the right to joke basically whenever you want, if it's about yourself. I mean, that's just kind of a rule that I try to follow with humor in general. Someone can be self-deprecating, right, and be funny, but you don't, like, punch down, right? Like, you don't make fun of someone who's in a worse situation than you. That being said, I did have moments where you and I would joke together about cancer or just like the bizarre situations you find yourself in. And so I felt close enough that like, sometimes the moment felt right for me to make a joke. But sometimes, like you mentioned, it just is awkward. It depends on who you say it to and the context. I literally said to you in your teenage years when you went to a tanning bed - like once, you went like a couple times in your whole life and I was like, you're going to get cancer. Like, I was super judgy. And then you did get cancer, but not from the tanning bed. It was a different kind of cancer. But I remember telling that story and like laughing as I told it to, like, a group of people while you were, like, actively sick. And it did not go over well. Like, everyone just kind of stared at me. And I think that, like, you and I had privately laughed about it, like, yeah, oh my gosh, can you believe, like, you gave me cancer? Like you said I was going to get it. Like, I don't know, in the right moment it was funny. But then when I repeated it, like, people felt really awkward. So it just depends on your audience. And maybe part of it is like, you weren't there, so maybe that wasn't the right thing for me to say. Like if you're not there to, quote, stand up for yourself or like laugh with me, then maybe I shouldn't have been making a joke about your cancer. So I think it's like a lot of humor. You mess up and kind of have to learn your audiences and like the right place. But I do get what you're saying about adding a lightness, and I think everyone's different. I think there's probably people who think it's irreverent or disrespectful to joke at all about cancer. And I guess I want to parse out a little bit what we mean by this. Like, we're not saying like, ha ha, I can't believe you have cancer. Like there's whole Instagram accounts devoted to, like, cancer memes. And basically it's just a bite-sized version of what we do on this podcast, which is try to make people feel seen and feel empathy, right? So like that's what humor kind of is, I think, the best kind of humor is like making that connection. Like we all have this shared experience. Like, I love when stand up comedians will like, go off about, like, something annoying in a drive-thru fast food place or like at the grocery store. And like, it's funny because we can all relate to it, right? And so these cancer Instagram accounts are like, creating that space for people to relate to one another through jokes. So like, I'm just scrolling through one right now called literally just “The Cancer Patient” no spaces on Instagram - and we'll link to that in our show notes.
Ella 8:42
That's like the best one that I've found.
Kayla 8:44
That's your favorite one. Okay. Yeah, there's like a picture of a dude walking through a woods in the snow with a blanket. It's probably from some movie I haven't seen, and it's like: “me freezing my butt off at every chemo appointment” - because one of the things that, like, people don't know is that chemo can make you really cold as it like, goes through your veins. And so, you know, warm blankets are great for that. But it's just like stuff like that that other people wouldn't get can be, like, funny when it's shared among cancer patients. So just like those types of situations where, like, it's so terrible that you might as well laugh so that you're not always screaming or crying is kind of what we mean by dark humor. But, you know, people have different opinions on this. So…
Ella 9:29
There were some really, really good ones when the Barbie movie came out, like this summer, there were just so many funny ones with scenes from the Barbie movie that I especially appreciated.
Kayla 9:43
I'll have to go back and see those. I think I missed those.
Ella 9:45
I have this one vivid memory of, we were like, hanging outside around this like small bonfire. And it's one of those like, I don't know if it's gas powered or what, but there was like a disclaimer statement on the side of it that was like “warning,” like in California may cause - you know how sometimes it's like specifically California, which I never really understand, but it's like - “may cause cancer.” And we're like, ha ha. Like, no worries. We all had it already.
Kayla 10:21
[Laughter] Yeah.
Ella 10:23
And I think if other people were there, like they would maybe be uncomfortable, but like, we all thought it was funny because I don't know. [Laughter]
Kayla 10:33
Were you ever, like, the target of a joke that made you uncomfortable? Or I mean, was it the opposite where people were like too hesitant to joke around you and you wanted to be like, lighten up people?
Ella 10:45
Yeah, I would definitely say that was more the experience like… like you were saying earlier when you made that joke and like it just didn't land. Well, like, I think I was the one making the jokes and people around me were like, visibly uncomfortable. But again, it's like, it's something that was refreshing to just like, be honest about it. Like I would so much rather that people tried to connect with me through like making light and making jokes when I was doing, you know, something similar to that, than like just not even trying to connect or like, being all like, ho hum. This is such a bummer. I'm so sorry. Like, again, going back to that petty piece of it all, it's like, I would so much rather someone make a snarky, like, funny joke about cancer than just like, look at me like I'm a sad, disheveled puppy, like on the side of the road, you know?
Kayla 11:49
Yeah. And on the flip side of this, I will say that as a nurse, I found the humor less helpful. I definitely have a biased experience because I was a cancer nurse only while you actively had cancer. Yeah, I remember just really struggling with the dark humor at the nurses station, which is like a commonly accepted thing in medicine, not just in cancer, but in all of medicine, for better or worse. And people have different opinions on this, but there is an element of dark humor that helps medical professionals cope with the trauma and the, you know, horrors that they see day in and day out. You do have to kind of distance yourself from your patient’s experience. Otherwise you'll just be like crying on the floor your whole shift, and you can't do that, right? So some of that tension is relieved by joking around at the nursing station. But when you were actively sick and I was treating people with the same illness as you, I couldn't handle the jokes that went around at the nursing station. I don't begrudge them that. Like, I don't necessarily think they were in the wrong. The line is hard to draw. I will say, like certain jokes sometimes feel okay and other ones don't. And I think everyone probably has a different idea of where that line of like appropriate jokes is. And that's why this topic is so difficult because based on, like, the mishmash of your upbringing and your temperament and personality, like, you're going to have a different comfort level with dark humor than somebody else. So obviously, true medical professionals don't joke to patients unless the patient brings it up first. And then you can like, laugh if they're laughing. But like, this is something that happens sort of behind the scenes in medicine. And so I think part of my issue was like, knowing that that's happening at the nurses’ station that was taking care of you, too. Do you know what I mean? Not like they were making fun of you, but kind of like there are just jokes made about patients as a coping mechanism. That's just a fact of medicine. I remember doing a report on this for nursing school when I was like, sweet and innocent and didn't have experience on a floor area. And I was like arguing that there should be no dark humor at all in medicine. That it was like demeaning and objectifying to the patients. And I think there's some truth in that stance. It does sort of objectify the patients. But that goes back to what I was saying, is that you kind of have to objectify them to stay separate emotionally. I think that in a perfect world or even in a better world, we would not have to objectify patients. We would have enough time to spend with patients that we could truly maintain our humanity and some semblance of our emotions around them. Like if each nurse had like two patients and could really like pour their heart out and their physical labor into caring for those two people, I don't think we would be forced into this objectification and joke situation. But when nurses are taking care of six, seven or more patients and you feel like a pill machine, you're feeling objectified by the health care system, and then it just trickles down from there. So I'm not trying to like, support looking at patients as objects. I just think that that's the reality of the American healthcare system. And what I experienced as a nurse was almost like, survival joking, I think, for people to be able to get through their shift. Did you experience any of that as a social worker? Like, does this bleed over into social work or not really?
Ella 15:55
I mean, I will say the job that I'm in right now is pretty social work-adjacent. Like, I'm not a clinical social worker in the sense of, like meeting with clients and helping them navigate, like, the healthcare system or connecting them with resources or anything. I run programming for kids with complex medical diagnoses, so I feel like it's a little bit different. I feel like I have a bit of a step back from like, directly working with them. And so I think because of that, because I'm working with like, larger groups of kids and families and parents, I don't think there's as much of that like, need to use humor as like a coping mechanism or like a survival thing. Like I think… I don't know. I just think it's different than that direct nursing care and like, need to just like, get through the day, if that makes sense.
Kayla 16:57
Yeah, obviously I'm not like hoping that you all joke like the nurses, and my experience is limited too. I mean, if anyone listening is a nurse and has had, like, a completely joke-free working experience, like please send us a message. I'm very curious about the culture and work dynamics that allowed you to, like, leave humor out of it.
Ella 17:21
Kayla, I'm curious, what was your reaction to that humor like in the moment when the nurses were just like making light or joking and you said obviously, like it just didn't land well with you. Like, can you remember, like, how you would actually react in those moments?
Kayla 17:40
It's kind of like when you're a kid at school and something hurts your feelings. At least for me, though, you just have this intense desire to, like, hide that and, like, keep it together until you can get home. If we all think back on our childhoods, we can probably remember embarrassing moments or like, things that were said to us that were rude. Like, I have this dumb memory in middle school, this boy I had a crush on told me I was slower than molasses on like the kickball team or something. And I was so embarrassed. Yeah. And I was so embarrassed. But you, like, you know, sniffle your tears up and like, don't lose it because it's just like you’ve got to get through. And I feel like that was a similar feeling of, like, not every joke, but certain ones that would like hit close to home. You just kind of like have to clench it in and then you can like cry when you get in your car. And the people I worked with were great. Like, I'm not - these people were my friends and it's not something that always offended me. I remember laughing at some of the jokes. You know, some patients, just like any customer service job, basically are like more annoying than others and like - so some of those I could commiserate on when they were kind of joking about the patients that are predictably annoying or rude, like when you're verbally abused every time you go in a patient's room, you’ve kind of got to joke about it so that you don't crumble. Yeah, so it wasn't like constant, but there were just like a handful of times where like, a joke would hit close to home and I would have that, like, grade school reaction. I do remember another nurse I worked with was also new, like fresh out of school. And I just remember like having this chat with her in the medication room at one point and like, we both realized the other one was feeling the same way. She said something like, I don't like who I am when I'm here. And that just like really stopped me in my tracks because I think that I had been sort of laughing along and trying to just like cover up my feeling inside that like, this is not okay. I don't like making light of this, but like, I was trying to do the best I could to survive and cope. And her just like saying that, that she didn't like who she was becoming while she was here at work really freed me up to, like, look for a different job. And I will say, once I went to an outpatient space and like, not a cancer space, honestly, the jokes got a lot less frequent and it was just a lot more manageable. And maybe part of that is just because cancer was my Kryptonite, because you had cancer. But for some people, like where I moved to, I worked in pulmonology and sleep and then later allergy and immunology. If you had a family member who, like, died of a peanut allergy, that could be triggering for you. So I think it just depends on the person. But I do think medical fields that are like, well-versed in death and dying and things like that have a higher rate of like, dark humor among the staff for sure. Ella, I remember - I think you read this book first and then recommended it to me, but the title of the book was “It's Okay to Laugh. (Crying is Cool, Too)”. And it was about this woman. It was a memoir by Nora about losing her young husband to cancer. And they had either - I think they had just had a baby, like he wasn't very old - and he died of brain cancer. And it was all kind of sudden. I think they even got married and got pregnant, like in the full knowledge of his diagnosis. And that was just the first cancer book I read that was irreverent. Like, she just like, leans into the dark humor and yet is super real about the hard parts, too. She's not brushing them off, but she's like coping by making jokes. And she now has like a whole podcast empire. I think one of them is called “Terrible, Thanks for Asking.” So you kind of get the tone of like, what her work is. And yeah, I just remember you recommending that book to me, and that was kind of like when I first really opened my heart to like, oh, like, it's okay to have times of, like, coping like this, because I think before, like, we had joked around a little bit, but I hadn't really, like, thought that it was okay. Like some part of me thought that like, we shouldn't be. But then reading her work and then kind of branching out from there made me realize like, okay, like there's a place for this among close friends. And if you're all on the same page and no one's getting put down, like, blah, blah, blah, like, there's a place for irreverent humor here. Do you remember how you came across her work originally?
Ella 22:21
No, I really don't. And I wish that I did. I mean, I think I - I can't remember. I might have even read that book - I think I've read it multiple times, but I'm wondering if I originally read it before I even had cancer. Maybe not. I mean, I just remember, yeah, her book definitely opened my eyes to to just using humor as a coping mechanism. And I think, like we've said so many times, related to different topics, like everyone is so different. And for some people, like, humor is a balm, right? And it's something that just like, helps them and makes them feel human. And so when you're going through something really challenging, like, it's just so refreshing to some people to be able to make jokes about it. And I think Nora, like, I think humor just comes so naturally to her that it was kind of what she turned to. And so I think that was a really refreshing perspective, especially after I went through everything. And yeah, I found at times leaning into that was exactly what I needed that day.
Kayla 23:34
Her landing page on her website just gives you an idea of her humor, like: “Hi, I'm Nora. I'm an author, a speaker, and the host of ‘Terrible, Thanks for Asking,’ a podcast that lets people be honest about the hard things in life. I'm also a remarried widow raising a beautiful blended family with my current, very much alive husband (knock on wood).” So like that last part, like knock on wood, I mean, that's just like her whole vibe. Her latest book is called “Bad Vibes Only (And Other Things I Bring to the Table).” And I think she has a book called, like, “The Hot Young Widows Club” or something. So, I mean, you get a sense of like, the flavor of her writing. So we'll link up to her website and her work. Yeah, she just - she speaks, you know, the truth, in a lot of ways, through humor. I just think it's another medium for people to speak truth into the world. I don't know if this counts as humor exactly, but I remember when we were like, discussing whether or not someone should like, date or marry someone who has a potentially terminal diagnosis, you were like, “Well, your husband could get hit by a bus tomorrow, like none of us knows.” And I was like, what? But then, I mean, you're right. Like, that's the kind of thing where I don't know that you were trying to make a joke, but it's true. Like, those are the kind of things where sometimes saying something wild like that is actually kind of what you need to reframe a little bit. So that's not as directly humorous, I would say. But I don't know. I laugh every time I think about that. So it is kind of funny. I don't know.
Ella 25:14
And I think it ties back to like what you were saying about Nora and her work. Like it's just speaking the truth. Like, I think sometimes humor is just hard truth that people don't necessarily know how to receive, but it's like, it is what it is. Like you're either going to say it in a way that's funny and a little bit more lighthearted, or you're going to say the same thing but in a different way. And it's going to sound way worse and way more sad, you know? I don't know if what I just said made sense, but…
Kayla 25:50
Yeah, I'm trying to think of a specific example, but I can think of some times where, like, you especially would say something to just kind of wake us all up. Like maybe me, Mom and Dad were like, politely dancing around a subject a little bit and you would just be like, I don't know, I can't think of an example, but kind of like that “your husband could get hit by a bus” thing, like where you were just like, well, here's the truth. And like a zinger, like a one liner, and we all would, like, laugh and then be like, okay, yeah, the elephant in the room has been removed. And now we can kind of like, address this. Like, I can't think of how you said things, but maybe around like being bald or like, I don't know, how people see you. Like there were times where we were trying to be, like, polite and you would be like, yeah, except for that, I'm like, totally bald. Like, I don't know. You would just, like, bring it back to reality with a little bit of humor. And I think it’s important, as always, with most of these conversations we have, is to let the person with cancer lead. Right. So, yeah.
Ella 26:59
If you're still hanging with us, thank you so much for listening to this episode. We hope that it resonated with you or that you learned something new. We'd love to hear your thoughts - if you agree with us about dark humor, if something we said struck a chord with you in a positive or negative way. We'd love to hear that, too. Next week we'll be talking about the power of presence. So just like humor and laughter can be a healing balm during a cancer journey, showing up for people and the power of being present with them can also be that as well. So we hope that you have a great rest of your week and we'll see you next time.