Episode 9: Stomaching Superficiality
During or after a difficult life experience, it can be tricky to engage with friends, family and strangers who continue to complain about mundane things like bad hair days or a grumpy boss. The sisters unpack that experience in today’s episode.
SHOW NOTES
Sources and Further Reading (in no particular order):
TRANSCRIPT
Kayla 0:09
You're listening to the My Sister’s Cancer podcast. I'm Kayla Crum, registered nurse and writer.
Ella 0:15
And I'm Ella Beckett, social worker and cancer survivor.
Kayla 0:20
We're sisters on a mission to care for the cancer community through the sharing of real life stories, a sprinkle of sass, and lots of support.
Ella 0:28
Join us in a new kind of pity party. It's a pity so many of us carry the heavy burden of cancer alone. So let's make it a party and carry it together.
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Kayla 0:42
Welcome back to the My Sister's Cancer podcast. You're listening to your co-host, Kayla Crum, me, and as always, I'm here with my sister, Ella Beckett. Before we get started today, I just wanted to remind everybody that we do have something called a Patreon available for listeners. So Patreon is an app and a website that allows listeners of podcasts and other creative endeavors to contribute financially to the creator's work. So I am a part of a couple Patreons for podcasts that I listen to and it allows the creators of the podcast to first of all be able to afford continuing to create the content that I enjoy, and second of all have a private community for listeners to interact on. Sort of like a bubble of social media that just the whole internet doesn't have access to. So we're hoping that by getting more people on Patreon, we can have a dialogue about each of these episodes in that safer, more secluded space where maybe people who have been affected by cancer or deeply value the things we're talking about on the show can have further conversations after each episode in that private space. So we do have the option for you to join and pay $5 a month to be a part of that community. You can just go to Patreon.com. That's P, as in Peter, A-T-R-E-O-N. Or download the app and join us there. Just search for My Sister's Cancer or my name, Kayla Crum, and it should pop up for you. You also might have seen links to this in our social media feed on Instagram or our website. So now, with those housekeeping things out of the way, this week we're going to cover something we like to call “Stomaching Superficiality.” So I'll let Ella tell you a little bit about what that means.
Ella 2:42
So when we were thinking about different topics that we could discuss on the podcast, this was one that really came to mind for me in particular because I really feel like this is an episode that resonates with a broader audience. A lot of our episodes are really specific to people who have had a cancer journey or someone they love has had cancer. They're more specific to people just within that cancer world. But this is really a topic that I feel like has a much broader audience and a broader reach and that I think pretty much anyone can really resonate with this. So I first just wanted to give a little bit of background of what we even mean by this, because it might be a little bit less self-explanatory than some of our other episodes. So when thinking about this, in my experience, after I was diagnosed with cancer and handed really the hardest news of my life, I came to realize that suddenly so much of what everyone was talking about or spending their time doing or the things that they were thinking about or worrying about just seemed so superficial to me. Um, when you're dealing with something just so heavy and overwhelming like cancer or a variety of other things, anything that's just the mundane everyday complaint or even just conversation topic seemed so surface level to me. And it's something that I really struggled with and honestly, something that I struggle with to this day. Less so than I did back then. But I think it was something that really - it came to the forefront when I was dealing with my diagnosis. And I do think that there were a few different times that this was especially true for me. So right after diagnosis, I think was probably the worst time of it, when, as I was saying, you're handed this diagnosis and your life just becomes totally consumed by all things cancer and your treatment and all of the things that you're dealing with, the side effects. And a lot of times you really don't even have the capacity for a lot of the, quote, normal things that you enjoyed in the past, the shows you like to watch, the things you like to talk about, just become a lot less important because you just don't even have the capacity for them. And then when I was really in the thick of my treatment was another time that this was really hard. So, as I was saying, when you're walking through your chemo and your radiation day in and day out, you're going to the clinic, so many things just fall to the wayside because they're just not important, because your life is really consumed by your treatment. I think another time when this was especially true for me was when I re-emerged into the real world. So as I moved into my season of survivorship, specifically when I moved back into college, this was startling to me. I have so many clear memories of the things that people were talking about, cared about, whatever, that I just really struggled having empathy for or caring about, or really even listening to what they were saying. Because I just felt the weight of what I had dealt with and what I continued to deal with was just too heavy for me to be talking about all these surface level things, if that makes sense. I think one of the clearest examples I have in my mind is when in college, obviously, everyone cares about what they look like. And I remember people would talk to me about having a bad hair day, and they would go on and on about, their hair is just not looking how they want it to look and whatever. And, yes, that can be super frustrating, but I just did not have the empathy for it when I literally did not have a single hair on my head and was wearing a wig. I'm so sorry that you're having a bad hair day, but it just hit different. And so, as I was saying that, it was most apparent to me when I tried to re-enter daily life and those social interactions post-treatment, I was thinking a lot about you, Kayla, because you didn't have the ability to put your day-to-day life on pause at all. So I was curious what your memories of struggling with this or your experience with this was.
Kayla 07:44
Yeah, I definitely had a similar experience. I appreciate you saying - naming the fact that I couldn't put my day-to-day life on hold, because I do think that made me feel a little bit separate from your experience and Mom's experience. Dad and I had to continue doing our normal life. I was finishing up my nursing degree the first time you had cancer, as listeners might remember, and I was a new nurse supporting my husband through college the second time. And Dad, of course, worked both times. Mom was able to take some leaves of absences and support you, but Dad had to still bring home the bacon, as they say. Yeah, Dad and I had the different experience of, maybe we took a day or two after diagnosis, but then it's like, you got to go back to the real world, and a lot of people in your real world know what you're going through. But even when they do, obviously I don't expect it to stick with coworkers, classmates, whatever, every single person you interact with in the way that it sticks with you. So then you just have to put up with what everyone complains about all the time, the weather, like you said, their hair, their annoying, like, the coworker complaining, too, about the other coworker, stuff like that. I would say my most vivid memories are from the first time around when I was still in school. And I do think this touches on the fact that we were college-age when this happened to you in a similar way to being a high schooler or really youthful at all. Youth is pretty narcissistic in general, right? Like young people - and I include myself in this - like we're pretty self-centered. We feel kind of invincible, we feel full of potential and we’ve got to focus on our goals and anything that's preventing us from getting there is the end of the world. So… and that's probably unique to America to an extent. We're very American dream focused and like, “get a good launch pad going” kind of idea. Apparently gap years are way more common in Europe and Canada and other places where you know, we’re doing early college programs here instead. So all of that to say, that energy in college, especially being a senior and hearing everybody stress about finals and tests and internships and where they were going to be at at this time next year, was hard for me to listen to when I knew you were in the hospital literally at that moment, suffering. And I think it was hard in a very unique way because I was a nursing student already. I had experienced some of this before you ever got diagnosed. So, like a year before is when I started doing what they call clinicals, where you go into the hospital and actually practice being a hands-on nurse. And even then, a year prior to your first diagnosis, I remember coming home from holding the hand of a person who's on hospice and hearing my roommates - whom I love dearly, and they were great people - like, complain about getting a B+ instead of an A, right, on something that day, and it just was like cognitive dissonance for me. And I struggled with it because I would kind of feel upset at them, and yet I knew it wasn't fair to them to constantly be like, do you know people are dying all the time? I've kind of had this issue in my life in general. I feel things pretty deeply for other people. I'm a pretty empathic person, and so I can kind of tend to be the black cloud in a group, I think, or at least internally I have a bit of a black cloud where I almost am looking down on people for being frivolous. Or like we had said in this episode title, superficial. Even though some part of me knows you can't live your whole life that way, you do have to laugh, complain about that annoying coworker. I know that. But it is hard when you have a job, like a nurse or, you know, firefighters, even teachers, like, people who see really tough things every day in their job, I think are going to really resonate with what we're talking about on this episode. And then it was even more heightened when you were the one suffering, not just strangers that I was helping as a nursing student. I will say, in a weird way, I always joke, but I'm serious, that your cancer made me not be a bridezilla. So I got engaged about two weeks before Ella got cancer or was diagnosed with cancer. And being the type A oldest child that I am, I can just see myself having gone ham on the spreadsheets and stressing about every detail of the wedding. And I'll never know how I would have acted without your diagnosis. But because it was there from almost the first moment of my engagement, it really put things in perspective. And I would go from touring a venue with my fiance to seeing you at the chemo clinic, and it just made things very clear. Like, you know what? You get married and the point of the marriage, or the point of the wedding is the marriage, not the wedding. And… and that just was so evident to me as my fiance supported me through your diagnosis. And seeing you and Mom and Dad go through this, it's like, the people are what matter. The relationships are what matter. Obviously, I had opinions on colors and flowers and stuff, but it just didn't consume me in the way that I think it would have if you hadn't had that timing with your diagnosis. This is not to shame anyone who was a bridezilla. I was what we called a gradzilla, meaning, like, I had a graduation party after high school, and I totally was a gradzilla. So I'm glad you saved me in a weird way from being a bridezilla, but, yeah. I heard it called, like, two kingdoms, like the kingdom of the suffering and the kingdom of the well or something. And it's like once you've kind of peeked behind the curtain or, like your job or your family member forces you to cross that line into the land of the suffering - once you've done that, you always know it's there. And so even when you're back in the land of the well, you just carry that with you and it can make things feel more superficial on that side. I'll have to put in the show notes who came up with that concept. I'm blanking right now, but…
Ella 14:50
It's kind of the whole idea of ignorance is bliss, right. Once you've seen it and know how hard things are, it's like you can't really go back. Like, if you've never had to go through anything difficult, you just don't know it's blissful, right?
Kayla 15:10
I think what you're saying, too, reminds me of the fact that I think a lot of adults get to where we are, but a little bit later. So I've found since your diagnosis and survivorship, I connect really well with women who are about ten to 15 years older than me, and finding friends my own age has been a little more difficult. Just because, I think that by the time you're like 35, 45, you've seen the suffering that life has to offer everyone, whether you've lost a parent or had a sibling go through a mental health crisis or lost a child, like women who are a little bit older - or any gender - but just as I've tried to meet other women my age, it's like, youth, like we said, is just so untouched sometimes by that. So I don't think we're these superior beings or anything like that. I just think we learned the tough lesson that everyone learns in life a little bit ahead of schedule from what a lot of people experience. Now, there are people who suffer like this or way worse in childhood. And I would be so curious, if that's you listening, what your experience has been and how you cope with growing up, knowing, living in the land of the suffering and having to deal with kids and teenagers constantly talking about what feels like trivial stuff. Like, there are people who learned this way earlier than we had to. We had a pretty idyllic life up until you were diagnosed, and I'm very aware of that now looking back. Yeah, older people in our life had died. Two grandparents who we love very much had passed away. Our family had a little bit of tight finances during the recession, but we really hadn't suffered yet. And so, yeah, I'm sure there are people listening who are like, wow, it took till you were, like, 20 to learn that? And then there are people who are like, man, maybe I'm still on the other side of the curtain. Maybe I haven't learned the land of the suffering yet. If you haven't, I'm excited for you because it's a great place to be ignorant, honestly. I try to not resent people for having not gone through a trial yet, but it is hard.
Ella 17:39
Yeah, I resonate a lot with what you were saying. I think especially when I was trying to get back to college and classes and whatever life looked like on the other side of - especially my first diagnosis, I really struggled to connect with people my age, and I think a big piece of that, like you were saying, was that most 18-, 19-year-olds just hadn't been through something as hard or something where they're grappling with the fact that everyone dies. Right? I think a lot of us just live our lives pretending that that's not the reality. It sounds really morbid to say it that bluntly out loud, but it's true. And I think for me, at least I don't want to speak for you, Kayla, but it… obviously, I think we treasure every single day a whole lot more than we did before, everything that we've been through. And I think it just really changes your perspective and your, in many ways, ability to dig down a little deeper, too. Because I think when you've gone through something really hard and you've come out the other side, and maybe you've had some time to reflect and talk through some of what you've learned - if you have learned lessons through that - I think it's just harder, then, to connect with people who are maybe just a little higher on the surface, by no fault of their own, living a little bit still in that ignorance.
Kayla 19:22
While you were talking, I was reminded of a piece I wrote called “You, the Survivor.” And I kind of wrote it about what I've observed and talked with you about as you've emerged into survivorship, and one paragraph came to mind. I'll read it to you now. “You're still so tired all the time, and trying to get back to whatever it is you did before is so much more exhausting than you thought it would be. Your classmates have graduated, or your coworkers have taken promotions, or your neighbors have added a deck to their house while you've spent roughly two years hooked up to IVs just trying not to vomit. You understand that none of these things can be compared to the others like apples to apples, and that if they were, you would probably win the award for most difficult task accomplished. But it still hurts to see all the forward momentum as you emerge in the same spot you were in two years ago, or perhaps even a bit behind.” So yeah, it's just that it hearkens back to the episode we did on comparison. It talks about just that perspective shift that is really hard to shake off in the early days of survivorship. And, like you said during treatment, but now that we're five years out, I do find it easier and I even have become more superficial again. I think you can't live your whole life worrying about everyone suffering all the time, or if you do, you're a really sad person. I complain about silly stuff again, there is some sort of time window on that. And you realize one day that you're really getting upset because the line at the grocery store is long and it's like, okay, it's a good sign in a way, that you're far enough from the land of the suffering to get upset over silly things. And yet there is like a kernel of truth that remains with you, I think. And sometimes we kind of forget about it and hide it, and sometimes it does help guide you as you move forward. I do think that I'm a more patient person. I am less focused on outward achievement than I was before. I just have learned by force of your experience to treasure the most important things in life. And then there are days and weeks and sometimes probably months where I let myself get superficial again. And I think that's just human nature. But…
Ella 22:15
Yeah, I totally agree with you on that. And I like what you said about - it's almost refreshing when you get back to the point where you're talking about a bunch of superficial things again. I kind of remember that point where your friends are actually just talking about normal things again or asking your opinion on this dress they just bought. I feel like when you're the person who has cancer or whatever else you're dealing with, a lot of times your friends or the people in your life don't necessarily want to come to you with all those normal superficial things because they're like, oh my gosh, what this person is going through is just like so much. I don't want to add to their plate or stress them out or whatever, but it's like a lot of times I actually did want to hear about that stupid thing that girl said to you in class or how dumb your boyfriend was when he forgot X, Y or Z. It was really refreshing to kind of get back to the point where some of the conversation was superficial because yeah, we're definitely not saying here that we just want to always be talking about deep things and dwelling on all the really hard things of life. That is absolutely not the point here and I don't think that people are going to think that, but I just want to call that out, that we are here for a sprinkle of superficiality too. And I think in some ways, like you were saying, it's refreshing when your life can get a little bit more superficial again.
Kayla 23:57
Yeah. I don't want anyone to hear us saying, “don't talk about silly things.” I think we're more just trying to name the weirdness of the experience and let people know they're not alone. If they're feeling kind of annoyed at everyone talking about their upcoming birthday party or whatever, like, it's normal to feel a little upset at people talking about normal life stuff. That's what we're trying to normalize here. We're not telling everyone else to stop talking about it because it is actually nice for people to continue to include you in their normal life stuff. There are the occasional insensitive people, like someone who knows you're currently bald, complaining about their hair is a little bit too on the nose. Like it happens. And if you find yourself saying something, you can be like, “Oh, I shouldn't have said that. I'm sorry.” That's the best thing to do is just call it out if you notice it in yourself. But I'm not trying to tell people not to be superficial. It's fine. It's hard. I think we're just trying to normalize the experience, not tell people to stop talking about their life.
Ella 25:12
For sure. I will say one thing that I struggled with back then but also still struggle with today, is that a lot of our polite conversational questions can become really loaded. Like something as simple as asking someone, how are you? It can come across as superficial at times, because if someone's asking me that really quickly in passing: “Oh, hey, how are you?” I always wonder, do they really want to know, or are they saying that because it's just like something that we say, right? It became a loaded question. And in many of those situations, I almost wanted to respond like, “Well, how much time do you have?” Because that's going to determine how honest I am right now and how much I share with you. And I think we've talked about this on a few episodes before, just like, how much do you share, what is over-sharing? What's the context here? I think, again, you always have to read the room. But I don't know. I just think we often ask this in a somewhat shallow way, not intentionally, but if it's asked in passing, it's like, do we actually care how this person is doing? Is there adequate time and space to talk about it if they're not doing super well? I don't know.
Kayla 26:44
It is tricky. I think a lot of people are raised to think that “Hi, how are you?” is the polite thing to say. Like, even passing someone in the grocery store, you're like, “Oh, hey, how are you?” It's just automatic. And I've heard this talked about in non-cancer contexts too. Like, people just kind of like, why do we ask this? We don't really mean it. I've kind of switched my automatic response to be, “Hey, good to see you.” Especially if it's an in-passing thing, because asking someone how they are is a loaded question. I find it exhausting because you’re always like, “Good, and you?” That's a very Midwest thing to say. It's not even proper grammar. You're supposed to say, “I'm well, thanks.” You know? I'm not mad at anyone who says, “How are you?” Again, once you've gone through something like this, or especially when you're currently going through it, I would say this more applies to when you're currently suffering. You're like, I don't know how to answer this question. And you're like, are they asking about that? Usually you can get a vibe, but not always. And I've also noticed that in American culture, we say, “Oh, busy.” And you if we're not saying we're doing well or good, we're saying we're busy, or “How's summer going so fast?” I do this too. So it's like we just constantly talk about time getting away from us and how busy and active we are and I think that is hard for somebody who, like, going through cancer, you're not busy per se. You're literally - I was going to use the word fighting for your life, again with that fighting language, but, like, you are really working hard to stay alive, and yet you're not really busy in the sense that other people are saying they're busy. So, yeah, I guess the theme of what we're talking about today is just like, there's so many layers to the experience of going through a cancer journey or just any kind of suffering, that those sort of rote conversations you have as an adult human are just loaded for you, even if the other person doesn't pick up on it. And that can be a hard spot to be in. On the flip side, though, I feel like you kind of start to connect with people who get it. So you know by now, if you've been listening along, that we love Kate Bowler, author, professor, cancer survivor, podcaster. She talks about something called the fellowship of the afflicted. Meaning the club that nobody wants to join. But once you're in it, you are blessed by the friendship of the other people in it. This doesn't always hold true. You're not going to connect with every single other cancer survivor you meet. Like you're not going to connect with everybody who's gone through something hard. But I do think you can kind of start to pick up on the people around you who have gone through something. And I've found it easier to kind of deepen those relationships in a way that is not as open to my relationships where they haven't suffered. Does that make sense?
Ella 30:15
Yeah. And I think that also speaks to - I learned probably within the last five years of my life that not every relationship can fulfill the same needs for us. So when you were talking, I was thinking about how yes, I've definitely found people that have been through really difficult things. I just naturally connect with them a lot more. And I think that also goes back to the - learning the hard lessons earlier. I think the people in my life who are my age but have been through really difficult things, I do think that there's more of a natural connection there. But circling back to the friendship piece of it, I don't think every friend in your life you're going to just bare your soul to. Right. I don't think that's how friendships are supposed to be. I think we should have the fun friend that just you're silly with and can just talk about all the superficial things, like, the friend that you watch “The Bachelor” with or whatever. But then there are the friends that obviously are going to be more deep and authentic and talk about the harder stuff. So I don't know, that just came to mind when you were talking. And I just think it's important that we remember not every person that you come across - like this goes back to the whole surface level versus digging deep. I don't think we have to dig deep with every person in our life. I just don't think that's sustainable. I do think there's some space and some beauty in having those friends that you just kind of stay on the surface level with.
Kayla 31:59
Yeah, I agree. I learned that lesson a little bit in college. That was the first time I'd been introduced to the concept of different friends for different reasons. I definitely heard people talk about having different friends for different seasons of life, but someone in college mentioned to me having different friends for different reasons. And that really clicked with me because I had deep friendships from prior to college and then I kind of had these new friends in college and some of them were just my like, let's go get fast food at midnight friends. And that actually was really good for my type A self to have a friend that was just like, come on. I mean, almost like positive peer pressure. I needed somebody to be like, part of college is supposed to be fun, let's go get slushies, let's go dancing, whatever. And I'm thinking of one friend in particular who it never really got deeper than that, but that was okay in a way that I knew when I hung out with her I wasn't going to have to go there about anything and that ended up being a positive thing for me. I will say that as an adult now, post-college, right, that is a trickier friendship landscape just because you're not constantly with all these other people your age. I've heard a lot and seen a lot of writing about how hard it is to make friends as adults, and that's true. But that concept has helped me, thinking, like, okay, I have my old friends, I have my couple friends, I have my church friends. You can kind of just have different groups. And I think the ideal in our head that you see on TV, right, the show “Friends,” you think you should have this core group of people that are your entire life. And I am jealous of the people that seem to have that, where they live two doors down from their best friend, and they do everything together, and they go on vacation together. That seems cool. I'm sure it has its own problems, like having someone that intimately connected in your life, just like in the show “Friends.” It's messy, but I think most people have different groups of friends that somewhat overlap, but they have different purposes. And so embracing that concept has been good for me as I grow up. And Laura Tremaine, another podcaster, author, former blogger extraordinaire, has written a couple books on friendship, the most recent of which was called “The Life Council.” And she talks about kind of like ten seats on your Life Council and how one of them would be your old friend, one of them would be your business bestie, kind of like a co-worker more relationship or whatever, different categories like that. And she just kind of helps you look at: who fills these seats in my life? Do I have empty seats that I should kind of seek out for me? I met a friend who has been a huge mentor to me in the writing and creating area of my life. And once I started meeting with her and hanging out with her, I was like, wow, this was missing. I am so glad I found this friend. And I didn't even really know what I was missing, so it was filling that work category for me. Since I left a traditional job, I really needed that coworker, work mentor spot filled. So that's a book we'll link to in the show notes that I found super helpful in thinking about this. Different friends for different reasons. And it's okay to have a friend that you don't go deep with, like a superficial friend. The superficial has such negative connotations. I think sometimes though, it is needed, like we all need to just forget stuff for a while or just be silly. It is great to have friends who you can go deep with and be silly with. That's like the dream, right? But you can't do that with twelve people. Sometimes me and Ella will joke about like, when somebody has a ton of bridesmaids, we're like, wow, I don't even like that many people. Which isn't strictly true, but I think I'm just picturing someone being that deeply intimate with twelve people and I'm like, wow, I don't feel that way about twelve people. Everyone has different capacities, and maybe some people do, or maybe they embraced the idea that I'm having my bridesmaids be my superficial “let's go dancing” friend and my “bare your soul” best friend. Like, maybe they just have all their friends up front with them. I don't know.
Ella 36:21
For sure. Yeah. So we just also want to acknowledge that's not to say that you cannot have positive, genuine connection with people that haven't been through difficult things. Kayla, I think what you were just saying about having different kinds of friends and your friends filling different needs, I think you can definitely genuinely connect with people who are lovely and authentic that just really haven't been through a lot of challenges. It's just saying that maybe you will connect with someone who has been through some stuff easier or more naturally, but at the end of the day, you can definitely connect with people who haven't as well.
Kayla 37:12
Yeah. As you were talking, I was thinking about your husband, Ella, because you met him through a cancer support group. And I remember you saying when you were going through your cancer, like, how am I going to find somebody who gets it? Like, how can I… because you were single most of your cancer experience, you had this fear of, like, how will I ever be able to sum up this experience to a partner? And you and your husband's experiences were super different. Different types of cancer, different treatment, different age. You weren't together when you went through it originally. But I do think for some of those closer relationships, it's probably somewhat easier to connect if they've gone through some sort of suffering. So that sounds weird to say. Like, I'm not saying you can't date anyone who's not suffered, but I do feel like for those deeper, closer relationships, if you went through cancer or something similar as a young person, you will probably be more drawn to an intimate relationship with someone who has at least peeked behind that curtain than somebody who's had everything in life go swimmingly for them.
Ella 28:24
For sure.
Kayla 28:35
So thanks for hanging with us if you're still listening. We really appreciate the listenership that's growing around this podcast and hope that it's meeting you where you're at. Next week we are going to have a bit more of a faith focus. So if you were raised in the church or of any sort of spiritual leanings at all, I think you'll find that conversation really engaging. If you're not spiritual at all, you still might find something worth listening to because I do think that a lot of people, whether or not they're of a faith background, get a lot of faith thrust upon them when they go through a life-threatening illness. So we'll be sharing a little bit about more of our faith side of things, and the concept of “It is Well with my Soul.” If you know the old hymn, that was a pretty meaningful phrase to our family throughout my sister's cancer and kind of unpacking how faith informed our experience of the cancer journey and all of that. We certainly won't sum up everything. It's a very deep and complex topic, but it's a huge part of our lives, and we wanted to dedicate a whole episode to that idea. We've touched on it here and there, but wanted to go a little deeper. So next week, that's where we'll be at. And as always, we really appreciate you listening. Feel free to follow us on Instagram and share the show with your friends if you found it helpful. See you next week.